GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"We have now established that nVidia's Detonator FX drivers contain certain detection mechanisms that cause an artificially high score when using 3DMark03. We have just published a patch 330 for 3DMark03 that defeats the detection mechanisms in the drivers and provides correct results." this is how Futuremark introduce their latest patch for their popular 3DMark03 software.

Saratoga, Calif.-based Futuremark issued a statement claiming that nVidia tweaked software needed to run its new GeForce FX 5900 chip, in order to distort performance in Futuremark's 3DMark 03 testing application. Futuremark is one of the leaders in software and services for performing PC benchmark tests.

According to Futuremark when the patch was applied a drop of as much as 24.1 per cent was observed in certain nVidia products, while competition products performance-drop stayed within the margin of error of 3 per cent.

An nVidia spokesperson said Since nVidia is not part of the Futuremark beta program (a program which costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars to participate in), we do not get a chance to work with Futuremark on writing the shaders like we would with a real applications developer. We don't know what they did, but it looks like they have intentionally tried to create a scenario that makes our products look bad.

ATI meanwhile are not too keen to capitalize on another, possible, embarassment for their rivals. ATI's Dave Baumann, partly in response to nVidia's statement said:
Despite still being a full Futuremark Beta member, ATI did not make it out of the report entirely unscathed either. There is a performance difference of about 8 per cent in Game Test 4, that accounts for about a 2 per cent difference in the final 3DMark03 score, between the new and old versions, indicating that although not visually different something was occurring on this particular test.

In order to add further validity to the importance of benchmarking tests ATI's Christ Evenden stated:
The 1.9 per cent performance gain comes from optimization of the two DX9 shaders (water and sky) in Game Test 4 . We render the scene exactly as intended by Futuremark, in full-precision floating point. Our shaders are mathematically and functionally identical to Futuremark's and there are no visual artifacts; we simply shuffle instructions to take advantage of our architecture. These are exactly the sort of optimizations that work in games to improve frame rates without reducing image quality and as such, are a realistic approach to a benchmark intended to measure in-game performance. However, we recognize that these can be used by some people to call into question the legitimacy of benchmark results, and so we are removing them from our driver as soon as is physically possible. We expect them to be gone by the next release of CATALYST.

What does all this mean however? Most knowledgeable gamers do not buy a card based, solely, on the score achieved in a benchmarking test. It is reliability, performance and value for money which usually determine which card is bought. Benchmark tests are mainly utilized in order to claim the performance crown, giving the bearer increased prestige and an advantage created by the publicity. All that cheating on tests will achieve is to render such tests useless and to create consumers who do not trust the manufacturers. Unfortunately, this time, the reputation of the biggest graphics chip manufacturers has been questioned and there is little chance that they will make it out of it without some doubt remaining in the publics mind. Doubt which can only be cleared by the release of solid, reliable and high quality products.

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GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Is it obvious that both company are f*cking each other over the silly ass war. I think this site is pro ATI & I can say you are extremely bias with the Nvidia side. Admit it DRDEATH, you are a pro-ATI. You HATE NVIDIA. FANBOY like you should be shot in the head.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Ive never seen DRDEATH be biast in the while ive been around here, he just stats facts, and what in the hell are you talking about Mr Anonymous? War? wtf? This competition is pumping out the best advances in graphics hardware ever seen, this is great....However with the current situation and only one side fairly competing with an honest attempt at the highest performance crown we see who deserve's are hard earned cash alittle more for the speed crown and for real effort.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"why isnt it worth it to play doom3 on a xbox?. give me a valuable reason that can change my mind.moron? dont call me a moron you little PC geek., okay, you just cant stand the fact that doom3 will be on xbox or stand the fact that doom3 will be just as good as the PC version, only change will be graphics which probley be hard to see for the average user. Also, most people dont have top of the line PC's that will beable to play Doom3"I see you love your xbox. Its a great gaming machine, the best besides the pc. Here is the deal though. An average PC will play doom III like the Xbox will. Its not because the xbox is slow, it just can't do the features that a high end pc can do.Resolution is a big problem with consoles also. the PS2 is the worst in that regards.Expect to see a gutted but still good looking version of Doom III on the xbox.Plus if it is anything like other pc to xbox games you won't see it for 2-3 years. Like battlefeild that was suppose to be made at the same time. How about operation flashpoint a 2 year old game that is still in development. By the time doom III comes out they will have another xbox.P.S. It takes extrodinary genius to make a 1st person shooter on a console any good. Only halo and golden eye have really done it succesfully.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

sorry, I'm very stupid. I don't know anything about consoles and pc's so therefore, I'm dumb but I'm also very very gay. I live on my computer because I dont have any friends. I'm a stupid PC geek.It's true, people with consoles have more friends but also have girlfriends and a life.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"sorry, I'm very stupid. I don't know anything about consoles and pc's so therefore, I'm dumb but I'm also very very gay. I live on my computer because I dont have any friends. I'm a stupid PC geek.It's true, people with consoles have more friends but also have girlfriends and a life"What in the hell are you talking about. Still using that 1980s line huh. Remember when people called the SNES the super nofriendo. Here in 2003 gaming is a multi-billion dollar industry. I know people from all walks of life that love computers and gaming. They all live very different and interesting lives, but I guess that is not good enough for u Fenixtxd.Consoles are fun. They just are technilogically behind. They have to be, thats how they can sell them for $199, less than half the cost of ATI and Nvidia's new cards. PC gaming is better on the whole, but that is not to knock consoles. I just think consoles are better for people with A.D.D. cause the games don't hold interest for long for the most part. Anyways why am I even writing, Fenixtxd is probably just a stupid little kid.P.S. I love computer games and I have a good social life at a fraternity at my college and I have a girlfriend

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

k you r babbling about this shit is better that shit is better can't u right down a list about bad things and good things about the two diffrent graphic card..i mean there should be good things about both cards and bad things about both cards??

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

>>>If I had the money ATI is the best.but im a c o c k sucker that loves it when the nvidia card gets frozen playing unreal tournament :)<<<Yeah, you are a f**ken c o c k sucker, but why do you use my name? To embarressed to come out with the truth? Frow some f**ken ballz, and say your opinion with your own tag. Its mroe than obvious that 4 posts ina row where made by you, since all are stupid posts, and all are in a close span of time.And btw, where the f**k did you get the idea Nvidia freezes in unreal tournament? Maybe its the fact you PC is a pile of crap, and your too dumb to set it up properly and have it [lay games.... Alot of people can run it on their machines.... so its clearly not the card, but the operator.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

PC gaming sucks. Look at your video card company. Both ATI & Nvidia cheated. Look at console, they never cheat. They still uses existing processor. That tells you PC will continue to suck in the years to come. Keeps wasting money on soon to be obselete item loser.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

you know what?both nVidia and Ati are VERY good suppliers - due to tests of all cards - it would be safe to say that both manufacturers are about on par. When nVidia releasees a "good" card. Ati releases a better one (4200 & 4600 / 9700pro). then it happens again - but this time ati make the first move and nvidia make a follow up ((9800pro / 5900) both manufacturers have had their hits: which makes them even!! Now i wont say which one but, yes, one manufaturer has been ahead of the game - even marginaly - in most tests... and yes that company is "the best" at this time. But that doesn't mean we shoulld all demean the compettitor because he is not FAR behind....now if you wanna see whose the best manufacturer around goto eluminx.comto see some PHAT glowing (GLOWING!!!) Keyboards! w00t

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

DUH, YOU ASSHOLE. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS CO-RUNNING THE SYSTEM? A GPU YOU DUMB-ASS. Xbox running a gforce3 chip. And Game-Cube running a ATI chip. All consoles right now are obsolete you no- knowledge fool. Gforce3? lol. 733 Celron? lol. 24, 48, 64 video memory? lol. Obsolete asshole. And i love to play my games at resolutions only you console owners would dream of. And run those games faster. And yes you cannot get rid of all the jaggies. But the PC does it sooooo much better. Love to see all those jaggies playing console games. I won't even mention that pile of streaming poo, The PS2.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

SSCREW Nvidia did not pay HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. That has been a major overstatement by Nvidia. FM just released a comment about that. I can even post that later.Nvidia has been in major PR spin lately, but has not answered themselves why they cheated. At least ATI admitted it "cheated" But the paths ATI took to get those results(1.9% over-all) is majorly different then Nvidia's 24.1% increase path. There is no loss in IQ whatsoever with ATI results. Proven. However, Nvidia's approach, and this is where the controversy deveoples, shows MAJOR artifacts when the viewing angle in certain screens is turned even slightly off the rendered path. That has been proven.And the "God" John Carmack has a few things to say about this also. And MANY software developers are scratchung their heads at some of his comments. But all should know that he has been supportive of Nvidia from day one. Here is something he mentions that does not make sense in the world of 12 bit integer, 16 bit float, and 32 bit float........

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Face the fact, PC graphic card company are nothing but thieves. They over charge for one graphic card. Both ATI & Nvidia even lied to you by cheating. $500 for a graphic card is way over priced. I can get 2 Xbox with that amount.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"Rewriting shaders behind an application's back in a way that changes the output under non-controlled circumstances is absolutely, positively wrong and indefensible.Rewriting a shader so that it does exactly the same thing, but in a more efficient way, is generally acceptable compiler optimization, but there is a range of defensibility from completely generic instruction scheduling that helps almost everyone, to exact shader comparisons that only help one specific application. Full shader comparisons are morally grungy, but not deeply evil.The significant issue that clouds current ATI / Nvidia comparisons is fragment shader precision. Nvidia can work at 12 bit integer, 16 bit float, and 32 bit float. ATI works only at 24 bit float.""DX9 and ARB_fragment_program assume 32 bit float operation, and ATI just converts everything to 24 bit.""When the output goes to a normal 32 bit framebuffer, as all current tests do, it is possible for Nvidia to analyze data flow from textures, constants, and attributes, and change many 32 bit operations to 16 or even 12 bit operations with absolutely no loss of quality or functionality. This is completely acceptable, and will benefit all applications, but will almost certainly induce hard to find bugs in the shader compiler. You can really go overboard with this"And this is where it gets interesting. 24bit fp precision is the DX9 standard. So by converting it to a lower float precision is raising some eyebrows in the software community regaring Carmacks comments about..."Nvidia to analyze data flow from textures, constants, and attributes, and change many 32 bit operations to 16 or even 12 bit operations with absolutely no loss of quality or functionality."And here is why. If that is the case, as stated by Carmack, then there would be absolutely no reason to render shaders in 24, 32 bit interger float. None at all. Why would you when doig so slows down the process and the IQ is the same? Not possible. Then every

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

True. But if you want cutting edge games and visuals and gameplay. Then the hardcore gamer has to pick the PC. Consoles just don't have the muscle that PC's do. But your right. The cost for those cards are too high.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

.....Then every precision on every gpu would render at 12 or 16 bit float. And it clearly does not. Gee, i wonder why....o) R3XX has optimized there fp units for 24 bit.o) R3XX may have suppoert for an 48 bit fp unito) NV3X has 16bit unutso) NV3X combines there 16bit units together to make an 32bit unit (thus slower).It's all very nice too that Carmark has commented on the shader issues, but why did he NOT (as far as I can tell) address the issue of the clippling planes and the other nasty stuff NV did??????Makes you think. And the reason is plain as day. It's political expediency. Carmack has to work with Nvidia in the future and has and has a strong working releationship with them, so they've elected to say nothing if they have "nothing nice to say".How could they possible support clips planes and lack of buffer clears off the camera paths? They could only agree that they are cheating hacks, and they'd rather not say this publicly and upset Nvidia. It opens a can of worms neither Carmack wants to discuss, because the first question asked would be "Does Nvidia also cheat on the Q3/UT2K benchmarks?Only a few sites and people with NO affliation with ATI or Nvidia are telling the whole story.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

I don't see ATI & Nvidia much of a competition. Both of them suck major ass. I hate ATI because of product support drops too rapidly and they have alot of drivers issue. I hate Nvidia for cheating and tweaking the denonator for making things worst than it is. Both of them still overprice their card. Eventhough I hate both card, I have no choices to buy one of them.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

This was just released....."As you know, 3DMark03's overall score is derived from its four game tests. You can see my results for Game 1, Game 2, Game 3, and Game 4.As you can see, ATI's optimizations—which they claim didn't change image output—barely affect the overall score. NVIDIA's, however, make a substantial difference. The most striking difference between builds 320 and 330 is in the Game 4 test, where performance drops dramatically once the cheats and optimizations are disabled. This test, the "Mother Nature" scene, makes the most extensive use of DirectX 9 and pixel shader 2.0.Those are the numbers. I don't have time here to dig into all of the related issues, but Dave from Beyond3D sent me a note about a couple of things you should check out on his site. First, Dave has captured images from ATI and NVIDIA cards in 3DMark03 to show the image quality differences between builds 320 and 330. The NVIDIA drivers clearly have more impact on image quality. Next, to help you sort out what that fact means, have a look at Unreal guru Tim Sweeney's take on cheating versus optimization. The basic principle he outlines seems like a good guide in this case."

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

I have read some reviews on this. It seems the GREAT John Carmack who is less of a driving force and more of a f**king bullshit artist these days seems to forget that the required minimum specification for DX9 full precision is FP24! Not 12 or 16! And this is the f**king guy everyone refers to as the god of software gaming? What bullshit. How some people live off their name for years is beyond me.So let me understand this. The tests that involve pixel shaders 2.0 and other dx9 features that Nvidia fudged to lower precision to increase performance is not called a cheat by Nvidiots and Carmack himself? Even though HE says optimizations that change IQ performance is infact cheating. Man he must be on Nvidia's payroll. This is a blatant cheat. The artifacts caused by the fx chips/drivers in the test when the camera angles changed proves this. Quality was lost. And supports what he just said. And he has the f**king balls to say it's not. Or skirts around the issue not to offend his biggest ally. As far as those tests are concerned, they have to be run in FP24 the minimum. Because that's the minimum requirement for dx9and pixel shader 2.0And NVIDIA WOULD f**kING KNOW THIS REQUIRED SPECIFICATION WHEN THEY MADE THEIR CARDS DX9 COMPLIANT. To say otherwise, Nvidia will be f**king lying some more! As they claimed with the NV30(fx line) that it was more dx9 compliant then the 9700pro. Pixel shader 2.0+. Too many lies Nvidia. Can't remember your first one.They are running those tests in question in everything lower then FP24. Not to mention camera cheating paths. That ladies is PLAIN cheating and bullshit to fool consumers. Because if they did not f**king care about this test anymore, why would they go on this crusade of this deliberate and elaborate cheat and also tell OEM companies not to use 3dmarks to test the fx line as it's invalid? They did all of this. Nvidia you make amazing products. But it seems REAL competiton that has come your way for the first time, y

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

The new generation of kids are spoiled brats who only care about graphics and only know graphics. They wouldnt know a good game if it slapped them right accross there face.Also, many PC games suck now.Alot of companies are going to consoles cause thats where they make more money because theres less piracy for consoles but on PC's, piracy is getting out of hand and that what makes companies stop making games for PC so dont whine when games like StarCraft: Ghost is only on consoles and not PC.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

As I have said before everyone has blown this out of proportion. So what if its performance drops so heavily in 3dmark03?? Everyone raves about 'well it can't do that it proper gaming benchmarks' and it doesn't. It still manages to beat the 9800pro most of the time. Yes it was wrong for Nvidia to lie to us, but hey that doesn't make the card any worse. I am not an Nvidia fanboy i would stick up for ATI as well if they were in this position. this is the exact quote from extremetech.comBoth the Radeon 9800 Pro and the GeForceFX 5900 Ultra take hits when tested using Version 3.30 of 3DMark03, but nVidia seems to be cheating more. ATI suffers an 11% drop, whereas nVidia takes a 16.8% hit when running at 1,280x960x32.In other words, whatever nVidia was doing to boost its overall score resulted in a 20.2% increase at this resolution. At 1,600x1,200, we see the expected compression of results, with nVidia taking a 10% performance hit and ATI sustaining a slightly higher 11.4% hit. ATI's score drop is almost singularly attributable to its score drop in Game Test 4 - Mother Nature, since the other three game-test scores remained nearly unchanged.And now for the really sad thing: go to [url removed] and see this. THE FX5900ULTRA STILL BEATS THE 9800PRO. And all you ATI fanboys outh there? you really annoy me. before doing any analysis on your own you immediately jump on any bad news about nvidia. Thats pathetic. Look at the benchmarks. Now shutup

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

You un-informed console morons. Stay in your section please. You do not have the foggiest notion what you are talking about."I hate ATI because of product support drops too rapidly and they have alot of drivers issue."Have you been living in a cave? What driver issues? Stop living in the past. If anything, right now Nvidia and it's past 40 series Det. drivers had issues more so then the Catalyst drivers. And ATI drops support???? So what would you call Nvidia dropping the enire core set for the 5800 then? You noticed the released a "revised" 5600 on that new core?"Also, many PC games suck now."I can name at least 10 games from the PC collection this and last year off the top of my head that are far superior to anything the Console has to offer with the exception of maybe Metroid Prime, and Zelda. Please Anonymous. Tell me what games on the console are FANTASTIC right now?"because theres less piracy for consoles but on PC's, piracy is getting out of hand and that what makes companies stop making games for PC so dont whine when games like StarCraft: Ghost is only on consoles and not PC."You have not taken a look at the pirated section at NFOrce NFOS? lol. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PS2 games and XBOX games being ripped. Not to mention MRIC.As for StarCraft: Ghost. You will see it come out for the PC soon enough.The only thing you have correct in your rant of a post is the fact that the money is indeed in the console area, as that's where the casual gamer that has no idea what gaming is really about. There the ones that buy those bullshit games that are nothing more then cannon fodder.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

10 games from last year and this year?. well, I gurantee that consoles came out with more and better games during that time span. So what are those far superior games?. make your list and then ill make my list.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

We will not know how these cards will run dx9 games until they release them. And the nature test that uses the most dx9 features and 2.o shaders out of all the tests is the 5900, 5800 weakest points. This makes you wonder how well those cards will do when those games come out in comparison to the 9800pro.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Alright, let me guess. Your top ten list of console games will include:grand theft auto 3: vice cityhalodevil may cry 2splinter cellmetal gear solid 2: substancezelda: wind wakermetroid primetime splitterstom clancy's anything (any of the titles)any other gay console gameOk, how many of these aren't on the PC?How many of these are easier and better to play on the PC? (with mouse controls rather that the gay thumb stick)Which system has better graphics?It's no contest. I have an XBox and PS2 also. They have a few games that are fun that aren't available for PC. But for most gaming needs, a fast PC with a decent graphics card crushes any console entirely.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

What is interesting also to note. The very few areas where the 9800pro did manage to beat the 5900 Ultra or come real real close in was in tests or games that used more pixel, vertex shaders. Splinter Cell. Some scenese in Unreal 2003 where shaders were used alot. Commanche4. ShaderMarks(a nvidia test) and the controversaly one. The nature test.(which uses the most pixel shaders 2.0 and other dx9 features then anyother test or game) Like Duke said, this has been a weakspot of the fx chips. 1 less vertex shader and 4x2 pipeline. And dx9 game in the near future will use extensively shaders 2.0 and other dx9 features. So FM might not be so far off the mark on it's shader tests. The same tests Nvidia has balked about and did not want vendors to test the fx line of chips on. That is why so many are saying for these reasons Nvidia has cheated. Cheated only in the tests that...guess what? Test shader performance. Too coinicidental. And the facts now are all coming in to varify this. Nvidia, own up. And move on. And continue to make great products. No more lies.....

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Here's 10 for you.1. No One Lives Forever 22. BattleField 19423. Rise of Nations4. C&C Generals5. Never Winter Nights6. Age of Mythology7. Aliens vs. Predator 28. Black & White9. Unreal 210. Delta Force: Black Hawk DownAnd i will keep going....11. Counter Strike12. Deus X13. Diablo14. Dungeon Seige15. EverQuest16. StarTrek Away team17. Freedom Force18. Free Lancer19. IL-2 Sturmovik20. Mafia(better then GTA3 BY A MILE)21. Myth322. Operation FlashPoint23. Postal 224. RailRoad Tycoon25. RobinHood: Legend of SherWood26. Serious Sam 2: Second Encounter27. Sim City28. Sims29. Soldier Of Fortune 1&230. StarTrek Bridge Commander31. StarWars Galatic Battle Grounds32. Team Fortress33. Raven Shield34. Tropico35. Ultima series36. Vietcong37. WarCraft series38. StarCraft39. Wizardy 840. Asherons Call 241. Battle Realms42. Vampires Masquarade43. Alice in WonderLand: McgeeAnd we won't mention the biggest games to come out...like DOOM3, Half Life2, Tron 2.0, DeusX 2, Homeworld 2, StarTrek Away Team 2 just to name a few.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

HAHAHAH!!!!!! ALL OF YOU ARE LOSER TALKING ABOUT BENCHMARK & OTHER NERD ASS STUFF. GET A LIFE MORON. COMPUTER IS NOT THE ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING. WHO GIVES A F*CK IF ONE CARD IS CHEATHING. I THINK 99% OF THIS BOARD NEVER HAD SEX. YOU ARE SO INTO THIS STUFF YOU EVEN FORGET ABOUT MASTURBATING. WELL GOOD LUCK YOU FAT ASS FANBOY. YOU WILL NEVER GET LAID.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

And this is for all who did not think Nvidia cheated. And ATI cheated. It's a long read. But a good one. Read it. Especially the readers that are standing fast behind Nvidia and their lies and deception.Nvidia. You are cry babies and it is now coming to light. You have been caught. Fess up.[url removed]

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