GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"We have now established that nVidia's Detonator FX drivers contain certain detection mechanisms that cause an artificially high score when using 3DMark03. We have just published a patch 330 for 3DMark03 that defeats the detection mechanisms in the drivers and provides correct results." this is how Futuremark introduce their latest patch for their popular 3DMark03 software.

Saratoga, Calif.-based Futuremark issued a statement claiming that nVidia tweaked software needed to run its new GeForce FX 5900 chip, in order to distort performance in Futuremark's 3DMark 03 testing application. Futuremark is one of the leaders in software and services for performing PC benchmark tests.

According to Futuremark when the patch was applied a drop of as much as 24.1 per cent was observed in certain nVidia products, while competition products performance-drop stayed within the margin of error of 3 per cent.

An nVidia spokesperson said Since nVidia is not part of the Futuremark beta program (a program which costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars to participate in), we do not get a chance to work with Futuremark on writing the shaders like we would with a real applications developer. We don't know what they did, but it looks like they have intentionally tried to create a scenario that makes our products look bad.

ATI meanwhile are not too keen to capitalize on another, possible, embarassment for their rivals. ATI's Dave Baumann, partly in response to nVidia's statement said:
Despite still being a full Futuremark Beta member, ATI did not make it out of the report entirely unscathed either. There is a performance difference of about 8 per cent in Game Test 4, that accounts for about a 2 per cent difference in the final 3DMark03 score, between the new and old versions, indicating that although not visually different something was occurring on this particular test.

In order to add further validity to the importance of benchmarking tests ATI's Christ Evenden stated:
The 1.9 per cent performance gain comes from optimization of the two DX9 shaders (water and sky) in Game Test 4 . We render the scene exactly as intended by Futuremark, in full-precision floating point. Our shaders are mathematically and functionally identical to Futuremark's and there are no visual artifacts; we simply shuffle instructions to take advantage of our architecture. These are exactly the sort of optimizations that work in games to improve frame rates without reducing image quality and as such, are a realistic approach to a benchmark intended to measure in-game performance. However, we recognize that these can be used by some people to call into question the legitimacy of benchmark results, and so we are removing them from our driver as soon as is physically possible. We expect them to be gone by the next release of CATALYST.

What does all this mean however? Most knowledgeable gamers do not buy a card based, solely, on the score achieved in a benchmarking test. It is reliability, performance and value for money which usually determine which card is bought. Benchmark tests are mainly utilized in order to claim the performance crown, giving the bearer increased prestige and an advantage created by the publicity. All that cheating on tests will achieve is to render such tests useless and to create consumers who do not trust the manufacturers. Unfortunately, this time, the reputation of the biggest graphics chip manufacturers has been questioned and there is little chance that they will make it out of it without some doubt remaining in the publics mind. Doubt which can only be cleared by the release of solid, reliable and high quality products.

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GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

drdeath you dumbass. if you read a earlier post, the release would have to be the begining of 2002 until now and not to mention alot of the games I have and thought they are crap.okay, want a console list all the way from NES, sure, ill give it.1.mario2.mario 23.mario 34.sonic5.sonic 26.sonic 37.sonic and knockles8.resident evil9.resident evil 210.resident evil 311.resident evil code veronica x12.final fantasy13.final fantasy 214.final fantasy 315.final fantasy 416.final fantasy 517.final fantasy 618.final fantasy 719.final fantasy 820.final fantasy 921.final fantasy 1022.metal gear sold23.dino crisis24.dino crisis 2and since I'm getting tired of typing out series of games heres what i'll do25.street fighter (all of them)26.mortal kombat (all of them)27.silent hill 1 & 2 & 328.tomb raider (much better on consoles)29.donkey kong 1, 2, 3 for SNES30.killer instinct31.the zelda games32.die hard triolgy for PSX, its mad fun33.area 5134.time crisis35.house of the dead36.Gran Turismo 1,2,337.driver 1,238.metal gear solid 2 (substance sux, I tried it)39. Super Metroid for SNES40. the new metroid for GC41.the getaway42.tekken 1,2,3,443.virtua fighter 1,2,3,444.dead or alive45.grandia 1, 246.chrono trigger47.chrono cross48.the legend of dragoon49.the secret of mana50.the secret of evermore51.secret of mana 252.super mario rpg53.super mario kart for SNES, N64 and GC54.need for speed (all of them), racing games 100x better on consoles55.Batman Returns for SNES56.1942 for NES57.Robcop vs Terminator for SNESI can go on and on. sure, i know how u r a graphics freak so I guess games that dont match your standards must be bad in ur mind.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Ok Mario series is great. Sonic is up there. Res Evil. It's on the PC. And is average game. Final Fantasy is on the PC. And is over-rated. Too much FMV. Looks and runs smoother on a PC. Metal Gear Solid is on the PC. Dino Crisis is a average game. Nice try. Street Fighter is on the PC.(Emulator..all of them.) Mortal Kombat is on the PC and i can play that at a higher resolutions then 640x480. Silent Hill is on The PC. And i can also run that boring average game at 1600x1200 with no slow down and no jaggies. Average game it is. Die Hard is also on the PC. And those games suck major ass. Area51. OLD AND DATED and is on the pc emulator. The exact one from the arcade. And you saying Tomb Raider is better on the console? LOL. Doubt that. Even though the series is crap except for the first one. They all have gotten bad reviews. And i have played them all. They all are pitiful. Love that pixelated jaggies look. Nice slowdown too on a console. Not on a PC. And 1st and 3rd person shooters always play better with mouse, keyboard setup. Proven. Faster response time. Killer instinct on the PC(Emulator) 100% the same as the arcade. And the game is average....Any arcade translation that consoles have, the pc has a emulator that is 100% like the arcade version. Mortal Kombat. On the PC. Play that at 1600x1200 resolution. House of the dead. On the PC emulator. Crap game compared to other 1st person shooters. Can't compare to Unreal, Return to Castle Wolfenstien. etc.The only games consoles have that are worth playing are beat'em ups. And most Nintendo games as they are truely exclusive and innovative. The rest are just average basic rehash games.Tekken series is good. Virtue Fighter is good. DOA3 is good. Soul Caliber is good. But like all fighting games. They have absolutly no replay value. They get boring as hell if you don't have a good competition and even then they get lame. Gran Turismo is good. The GetAway is a GTA3 ripoff. Average game. Yawn. And Need for speed on a

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

....And Need for speed on a pc with a steering wheel setup is FAR superior to any console version. On the pc i can run it with all eye candy on, and no slowdown and smooth game-play. As for racing games, software companies make more arcade stlye race games for the console. Racing simulations and flight combat simulations are superior on the pc. Each have it's place. But if they wanted to make it better for the pc they could easily. The pc has the muscle to do it. Consoles are limited.Now like you said. Now list games on the console THAT ARE TRIPLE A games or close to that from 2002 till now. Because most of the games you mentioned besides the 'classic' nintendo games that i can get on my emulator are average games. Far from stellar. Name some current "stellar games"

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Isnt this exactly what Nvidia is doing (except Nvidias drivers dont make a diference in the picture quality)?THE BENCHMARKETING community was quite upset about ATi allegedly bending the rules on Quake drivers and we've now extracted a statement out of the chief spinner at the company.ATi has basically put its hands in the air and said "it's a fair cop, guv". But at least the guys haven't tried to tough it out.The thrust of the argument is that ATi attempts to optimise performance "as much as possible" Some players of games like Quake 3 prefer frame rate over quality, which is certainly no argument for decreasing the quality of the picture.ATI said it will correct this in its next revision of drivers available in mid November.µFrom John B. Challinor II APRDirector, Public Relations ATIOn Quake 3 and optimizationQuake 3 is a popular OpenGL game that is commonly used as a benchmark by many reviewers. ATI optimizes its drivers at many levels, including the operating system level, the API level (DirectX/OpenGL), the game engine level, and the specific game level.Our goal is to deliver the best possible gaming experience to our users, across the widest possible range of applications and system configurations. In fast-paced action games like Quake 3, the quality of the gaming experience is often tightly linked to high frame rates for smooth, fluid motion.While image quality is also important, it is often considered less important than frame rate in games of this type. Recent optimizations made to our RADEON-family drivers provided Quake 3 with a significant increase in performance while maintaining a level of image quality similar to that found in competing graphics cards. Unfortunately, this optimization resulted in a certain texture quality setting in the Quake 3 game getting inadvertently ignored by the driver. This texture quality setting allowed users to trade performance for increased image quality, if desired. This issue will

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

QUOTE:> I said give me 10 PC titles that is only on PC and not on anything else and that are better then console games?."No you didn't. You said: "10 games from last year and this year?. well, I gurantee that consoles came out with more and better games during that time span. So what are those far superior games?. make your list and then ill make my list."And your list is from the entire life of consoles. I mean we could have the whole IGN top 100 games of all time discussion here, but the fact is both PC and consoles have put out many entertaining games and before the computers caught up the consoles were the best. They had innovative games and they still have great games. I play computer games probably 10 times more than console games. The graphics are better and the controls are far better for FPS games. I don't think graphics are everything (for example, I'll still play Star Control 2 from time to time and it has pretty bad graphics by todays standards) but good graphics are nice too, and consoles just can't compete.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Oh yes they have. Trust me. They have. Nvidia has brought that up many times since this story broke. It's just that this time around, Nvidia is playing hide and seek with the issue and bullshitting about it.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

And as DRD points out, the PC can emulate almost anything with the exception of the newer systems, XBox and PS2 for example. So I can play about 80% of the games you mentioned for consoles on my PC anyway.Plus why play a shitty port of an aracade game when the PC can emulate exactly the same game you played in the arcade. You know that Nintendo always fudged up games when they ported. Take a look at Strider. Ugh. Sometimes they just completely changed the game when they ported it.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

well, consoles had more triple A games in 2002 until now.I really dont see triple a games in that time for PC except mafia, vietcong and black hawk down.battlefield 1942 sux, only the mods for it are good.mortal kombat on PC sux, why? cuz keyboard and mouse not good for fighting games and also, the new MK Deadly Alliance best MK so u play ur crappy MK4 which is the worst MK.if you get a steering wheel for NFS for consoles, its way better then PC version and there you go again about graphics again. and yes, u r a graphics freak. silent hill 2 for PC might have better graphics but the console version is more fun.sure, resident evil is on PC but PC is not good at rendering 2D spirtes, compare the enviroments of the psx and pc and you will the PSX has much better graphics and considering the control is better and fun factor for it on a psx kills pc version. final fantasy 7 and 8 is on PC and I tried those versions, not as much fun as console version.you wouldnt be saying dino crisis is a average game if u played them for psx and since u said nice try to it, ill give u my list of nice try and its not all that good.-No One Lives Forever 2-BattleField 1942-Rise of Nations-C&C Generalsand the rest of ur list is crap except vietcong, mafia, black hawk down, postal 2, flashpoint, ghost recon and starcraft.sure, u can get most console games on PC with emulaters but theres 1 thing, keyboard and mouse is not that fun to use when u play donkey king, final fantasy, fighting games, racing games or that awsome game called Black Thorne.metal gear on PC sux, i played it and had more fun playing it on the psx and subtance just completely fails. arcade shooters are much better on consoles when u have a lightgun. basically, your seeing it from a graphics stand point which is I'm not. I'm looking at fun factor first. dude, just admit it, your a graphics freak. you would take graphics instead of a 8bit nes game that is alot of fun.UT 2

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Actually the ATI drivers lowered the texture quality to the lowest setting regardess of the in game setting. its to my knowledge that the Nvidia drivers removed the rendering of masked and unseen objects in the benchmark and produced no degredation in the quality of the scene.I must also shoout my ignorence at not having seen any comparative shots between Ati and Nvidia's rendering of the same scene in the benchmark. Also if there is no degredation in picture quality is it a cheat or optimization?

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Just the fact that you said the rest of those games are crap make me laugh. You don't have a PC.1. Black & White2. No One Lives Forever 2 (game of the Year runner up. That's triple A and all the reviews gave it a t least a 93%. You never played the game. If you did, you would not be saying that.3. BattleField. One of the best online war games to come out in years. You are a console user so you don't know this.4. Raven shield you say is average aor crap????? Too bad the game is amazing and got at least a 90% most review sites.5. WarCraft3 is crap? lol. Ok buddy.6. Generals is crap?? Ok buddy7. Rise of Nations is crap?? You can tell you are a console owner.90% of those games i mentioned got review scores from most games sites(sites that review consoles as well) of at least 85% and over.Have you even played any of them? I doubt that. To say Alice in WonderLand by EA is crap, you make me laugh. That game was cutting edge when it came out in early 2002. Games like. Clive Barkers Undying. Never Winter nights. You say thats crap??? You need to play those games. Those are REAL RPG'S that have multi player online features. Wizardy 8, Vampires Masquarade. You call crap? Play them then come back and tell me that.And for you reference. PC's have the most options for gaming controls. I use a Logitech Gamepad that has 12 buttons and force feedback to play all my emulator games and beat'em ups. Fully programable. That old story about 'PC users have to use keyboard for those games is so dated it's not funny. And the Logitech Gamepad has the same layout as the PSX controller and is fully programmable. Right now one of the best racing wheel setups is from Logitech complete with metal foot pedals for brakes and acceleration. With force feedback also. I have it.And how do you know the console version of Silent Hill is more fun? lol. It's the same game. Pc looking better and running smoother. No load times. Oh ya. The crappy part of consoles. Loading in between

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Dude, if anyone thinks that ATi admitting that they cheated is a bad thing, I'd like to say: they admitted to an optimization that _could_ be interpreted by certain people as cheating. They wanted to be honest, just in case people thought what they did was considered cheating. They at least have the balls to admit what they did! They have corporate accountablity. I know a lot of you people won't admit when you are wrong, or if there's something that potentially makes you look bad. But ATi will.nVidia demonstrates the way not to do things. It breaks down like this.Business DO: Business DON'T:ATi nVidia

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

PC not as good rendering 2d sprites??? Do you know what you're talking about when it comes to 3d and 2d rendering architecture? Just you saying that makes me cringe. Any video card today can run circles rendering simple 2d sprites over consoles anyday of the week. That's such a easy mathamatical calculation for any video card today. The 5900 Ultra and the 9800pro runs 2d like a dream. A wet dream. Same with the lower end cards. That's a easy task."compare the enviroments of the psx and pc and you will the PSX has much better graphics and considering the control is better and fun factor for it on a psx kills pc version."This is why consoles render in 2d sprites most times. The limited gpu in the system cannot render those in real 3d graphics at full stable frame rates. Why do you think Res Evil for the Game-Cube is Pre-Render? The Game-Cube could never run that game in real-time 3d graphics. Same for the x-box and ps2. And the draw distance for PC's which effect enviroments are so superior to consoles it's comical.Don't make a fool of yourself and compare technical aspects of a console to the PC. The console is out of it's league. You should know that. That's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.If a software developer is lazy and just ports a game over to the PC without taking advantage of it's superior hardware, that's not the PC's shortcomings. Blame that on lazy programming. It's just cheaper and easier for those lacky's to do that. Instead of programming the game from scratch for the PC. Case in point. GTA3 for the PC. Play that on the PC at 1600x1200 with AA+FAA enabled on a 21 inch monitor or to your TV. You will never play it on the console again. Psst. You can use the steering wheel setup and a game pad and the keyboard and mouse setup too. All of them together. And on the PC unlike the PS2 version, no slowdown ever. Load times are non-existent. Game-play is smooth like silk. Try that on your console. And 3rd person games run better using keybo

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

...And 3rd person games run better using keyboard and mouse setup. Like MaxPayne. Response time is better.And i have played Dino Crisis on the PSX and the PC version. It's nothing more then another Res Evil Game. Yawn.And just by the games you mentioned describe what games you favour. To say RTS are crap, combat simulations like IL-2 Sturmovik are crap proves you never played those.And all those emulation games that are 100% exact arcade copies are all played using a game pad. And guess what? You can go online and buy a arcade stick and button setup just for it if you want. Arcade quality. AThe same as the setups in the arcade

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

I think carmack said it all with "Rewriting shaders behind an application's back in a way that changes the output under non-controlled circumstances is absolutely, positively wrong and indefensible."He didn't say that nVidia didn't cheat. He is saying in not so many words that they did and it is absolutely, positively wrong and indefensible.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"The Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences (AIAS) announced the winners of its 2002 Interactive Achievement awards last night. Analogous to the music industry's Grammy awards or the film industry's Oscars, the Interactive Achievement awards recognize the best computer and console games as voted on by the AIAS, the official professional academy of the games industry.The big winners include EA's first-person shooter Battlefield 1942, which won four awards, including game of the year, computer game of the year, innovation in computer gaming, and online gameplay of the year."The best game for consoles i would say would be Metroid Prime or Zelda.I have to agree with the dr. The year of 2002 was not exaclty great for console games overall. Too many GTA3 rip-off games. Nintendo always pumps out great games. What's new. PS2 brought nothing special out in 2002-2003. Devil May Cry2 was a disappointment. Final Fantasy is getting tiresome now. Xbox had some good ones. Panzer Dragoon Orta. Not many. Brute Force was not exactly the KICK ASS game everyone and all the Microsoft hype was stating it would be. PC's had the stellar year in 2002 and it looks to be that way in 2003. Half-lif2. Doom3. NOLF2. C&C. Unreal 2003. Battle1942. And many more.2003-2004 looks good for consoles and PC's alike. But for 2002-2003 i have to hand it to the computer this time around. With Nintendo being the only console out there to really create innovative games over the other consoles.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Cochese:>Funny how nobody remembers when ATI degraded picture quality in quake 3 in order to get better scores.No we remember that well, because ATi ADMITTED it and moved on to CRUSH nVidia. They have accountability. nVidia should be taking notes instead of alienating their customers.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

no, i own a pc and few consoles.generals sucks, first C&C was and is the best C&C so far.black and white, very boring for me.no one lives forever, i'm sorry, james bond will always be better.battlefield, i have it and it sux, i only bought it for Desert Combat and it was worth it but still, BF 1942 sux.raven shield, gets very boring too fast. I prefer ghost recon instead of raven shield.warcraft 3 is crap, 4 sides makes it very unbalanced. also, fun factor isnt there like warcraft2.rise of nations, bleh, too much like empire and gets very repetitive. I'm sorry dr.death, gaming review sites dont make a game good if they say its good.I guess you believe whatever comes out of there ass. I guess you cant stand the fact that i'm not a lemmoning like you and believeing every gaming review site if they give it a high score. also, whats so funny about having my own opinion smart ass?. I find it funny how you get so mad just cuz u dont like my opinion. this is why I say stuff, cuz its funny to see you get mad. what do you mean?, the PC is still at 32 bit when consoles are at 128, someones behind dont you think?.stop putting words into my mouth you clown, I like RTS games, i just find these new ones quite boring.selling the most product doesnt mean its better then the product that isnt selling as much and this goes for gaming review sites, just cuz a game gets a high score doesnt mean its better then a game that got a lower score.so dude, start thinking for yourself and start relying on yourself instead of relying someone elses opinion. also, gaming review sites are just 1 persons opinion and there opinion and its not a review for the general gamers.example, I dont like BF 1942 but in general, alot of people will like it but gaming review sites dont work like that, they write the review for themselfs. so please, dont bring bullshit from these sites.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

>>>Dude, if anyone thinks that ATi admitting that they cheated is a bad thing, I'd like to say: they admitted to an optimization that _could_ be interpreted by certain people as cheating. They wanted to be honest, just in case people thought what they did was considered cheating. They at least have the balls to admit what they did! They have corporate accountablity. I know a lot of you people won't admit when you are wrong, or if there's something that potentially makes you look bad. But ATi will.nVidia demonstrates the way not to do things.<<<You f**king moron. Firstly, ATi admitted to cheating, because Nivida got caught, and look at the shit there in... They wanted to take as much away form the look of cheating as possible. ANd while its only 8% in one test, when the resolution gets higher, its going past 10% performance increase, and Nvidias is below 10% in the same resolution.I dont consider it cheating though. I dont consider what Nvidia did a cheat. Its called tweaking. While its a dirty move, its a fact. The image quality was not altered, it just removed things from memory to take load off.... that werent in view. That is a tweak. its the same sorta tweak used in games. 3dmark however, never incorporated it, so Nvidia did... But yes, its still dirty, since ATi could do that same move and also improve there score.Cheating is what ATi previously done. Lowering the quality to improve performance. Tweaking, si what Nvidia just did, removing some of the load for better performance and same quality. optimisation is what ATi just done and fessed to, rewriting a more efficient way of doing the scenes.Now in most situations, the second two, arent really cheating. But FM see it as that. A developer making a tweak is a bit unusual, its usually made by 3dMark fanatics for higher scores... so its giving an unfair advantage.BUt Futuremark removing anything remotely close to even jsut optimisations is just BS. IF ATi, or Nvidia, can rewrite there code better to

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

also, iv had enough talking to u, ur useless to chat too, your too serious about everything because if I'm wrong on something, u lash out like a crazy nut case. sorry man, maybe its time u take a vaction and get away from a computer for a month or something.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

>>>Cochese:>Funny how nobody remembers when ATI degraded picture quality in quake 3 in order to get better scores.No we remember that well, because ATi ADMITTED it and moved on to CRUSH nVidia. They have accountability. nVidia should be taking notes instead of alienating their customers. 16bit thing? Its almost as if Nvidia are trying for this publicity, or if they are trying to bring alot of bad publicity over to Futuremark. I would lvoe to know whats going on in there heads....

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"No One Lives Forever 2-BattleField 1942-Rise of Nations-C&C Generalsand the rest of ur list is crap except vietcong, mafia, black hawk down, postal 2, flashpoint, ghost recon and starcraft."thats more than 10...

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

consoles are inferior in almost every way.they may very be more stable, but thats only because they lack the possibilities and features of the PC. hence are cheaper.true gamers have and use PCs over consoles any day.but for a little, unserious light entertainment on the side for a few minutes a week, by all means get an xbox - cheaper :)but people who really appreciate games play them on pc.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

OK...if nVidia all of a sudden made a graphics card that completely blew the ATi away and performed 400% better than it, which card would you buy?. and vice versa for nVidia fans. when i used to own a 3dfx voodoo banshee i swore i would never buy an nVidia card, but now i own one and im happy with it....go figure :P

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

in my oppinion it isn't really a fair comparison.light saying which is better?a Boeing 747or aCessna turboprop planeboth are absolutely excellently designed amazing aircraft, no doubt about it. but different purposes were behind their manufacture.the 747 - 'PC' is faster, goes further, is stronger, flies higher, and carries more.but the cessna - 'console' still does what it was made for

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

john carmack was way off mark. what he said about the ati cheat was that it could be considered an optimisation by rewriting the shaders behind the applications back. hang on a minute so detecting a program and then changing something to make it faster is not a cheat ? especially if the program is meant to be a fair benchmark ? anyone who agrees with that has holes in their head.also previouslly carmack admitted that doom3 was mainly being done with nvidia gx cards because they did more and performed better. funny huh ?also only release drivers should be talked about not any leaked beta detonator drivers.whats funny is that ati admitted cheating and look at all the fanATIcs defending them. dont bitch about 1 without being equel to the other.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

'the PC is still at 32 bit when consoles are at 128, someones behind dont you think?.'I see you have no idea of computer harware. lol. No system is truely 128bit except for the PS2. Which their GPU is inferior to all the others because it cannot render many advanced features within it's hardware. FSAA for one. The x-box and Game-Cube use a hybrid system. The IDEA of 128bit over 32 or 64 is that 128bit can transfer DATA twice or 3 times as fast. Only problem with that moron is because of these consoles limited video memory, limited cache and slow CPU this transfer of Data means sqaut when rendering graphics. Lot's of bottle neck issues. You know what that means no brain?At least the Game Cube uses 2MB Sustainable Latency : 5ns (1T-SRAM) Embedded Texture Cache. And the Internal Data Precision for consoles are 32bit and 64 floating point. PC's render at higher precision. As seen when comparing games to the PC and the console. If 128bit meant so much then why do PC'S produce higher resolutions, crisper graphics and smoother animations calculating at 32bits? It's the GPU you moron. lol.And for you information. This "128 bit" system is pure marketing for people such as yourself that do not know any better. Where the real power lies in the systems GPU. This is where the system takes the brunt of the calculations in rendering graphics and A.I. The PC CPU may calculate in 32bit instructuions which will change in september with the release of the Hammer Chipset, but it's the GPU that does not. And consoles GPU's just do not stack up 12 year old fanboy.And who's getting mad? I enjoy talking to someone who claim the console produces better graphics then the PC. LOL. That's a good one. You have zero knowledge in this area casual gamer.And you mentioning James Bond better then No One Lives Forever 2. Don't make me laugh. That game was absolute crap. Horrible A.I. Horrible game play. Bland textures. And Generals sucked? WarCraft3 also? lmao. Stick to your console

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Well for the most part, i agree with you.But then again, Carmack was correct with his theory of cheating IMO. It is a bit of a funny situatuion, since both sides in theory, do seem logical. But, in both Nvidias, and ATis cases, i dont consider them cheats, as you still get the same experience, and the quality is still the same. Like i said earlier:Nvidia = Tweaking Program, the experience is still the same, they jsut removed unneccessary things, which shouldnt have really been there. Games dont keep things unneeded in memory(or they shouldnt).ATi = Optimising. While its not necessary to optimise for one particualr program, if they do it and leave it, whats it hurt? The games are unnafected, and since the program is so widely considered as a standard, why not make there cards run as fast as possible in it?FM = Monoply. They think they can set a standard, and MAKE card companies follow it. But why should they? If a game company doesnt mind optimisations in there games, why should they? After all, there only meant to represent games.... but they dont do a very good job at that. Any real program will be equipped like Doom3 will be, and have coding for both cards, so both are performing at there best in the program. Not so one has to emulate the others way of doing things. WHich is exactly what Nvidias gotta do. They gotta run the ARB2 path, which ATi is faster in, whereas the NV30 path they made, they can do the same functions, same quality etc. And beat ATi.BTW, didnt carmack say that, back when the GeForce3 was the high end card on the market? Either way, it was then, and it is now. Only difference is, the difference between high end cards, is so minimal.... Its hard to choose an outright winner. BOth cards have for/against, and either card would be a dream to anyone to own(and those who do... well, you lucky bastards :P)

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

BTW, if it aint clear, i absolutely HATE futuremark. I like Nvidia, and i also like ATi. Both companies are great. But Futuremark pisses me off LOL.They are purposely making bad situations for Nvidia(they could of used the NV30 path, thats probably why Nvidia left...) and they are also purposely f**king over both companies. THey got both them bending over backwards, to have a higher score, in a program which doesnt mean shit, if they can both run games perfectly fine. Which they can... and yet there still trying to get a 3dMark crown.WIth any luck, both companies can reveal FM for what they are, and FM will go broke (why the f**k charge Companies which put it in business, to have Developer versions of there test? IF neither Ati/Nvidia supported them, what good would the program do?)

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

hahahahahahahahaha. many xbox games right now have better graphics then most PC games right now and thats because PC developers are not taking advantage of PC hardware.Just because drdeath knows more about specific tech about certain things, he thinks hes better then everyone else and thinks hes all that and a bag of chips. Also, hes right about how drdeath lashs out on people who are wrong or doesnt have the same opinion as him cuz u simply lashed out in ur last post by going to far in everything and also called him names when u dont know him personaly. It also shows your having a miserable life because of this. Calling people no brains or morons cuz they dont know hardware stuff is completely stupid and wrong.Its like me saying, you have no brains cause you dont know anything about guns or your a moron cuz u dont know anything about sports.hey buddy, wake the f**k up and step into reality, not everybody is going to have the same opinion as you.Also, have u ever thought hes saying that stuff just to get you going and dont deny it, i mean, just look at your posts, it says it all for it self.and for sarevok, PC gamers doesnt mean there true gamers. true gamers are also on console and if you cant simply see that, well, I guess your missing on alot of awsome games.also, drdeath, triple a games come out and once in a while and those games you mentioned are not triple a. last triple a game I thought was mafia.he thinks generals and wc3 sucks so why cant you accept that? because gaming review sites said its good and you cant stand the fact that he doesnt like it?. you may tell him to go back to his console, but im telling you to get a f**kin life and accept peoples opinion and stop being closed minded. hes right, u need a vacation away from a computer and I suggest u do that because your head will explode because of too much PC info overload.say it all you want, i check this site once a week cuz I DO HAVE A LIFE.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

lil monkey dude, you have no life. Stop pulling that shit with us you f**king loser. You talk shit. Tell us whuch xbox games that are on the pc that have better graphics. Tell us lil f**khead..lol This i would like to see.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

SSCREW, you need to read what Carmack and Tim Sweeny said in regards to cheating closely. It proves Nvidia cheated."Rewriting shaders behind an application's back in a way that changes the output under non-controlled circumstances is absolutely, positively wrong and indefensible.Rewriting a shader so that it does exactly the same thing, but in a more efficient way, is generally acceptable compiler optimization, but there is a range of defensibility from completely generic instruction scheduling that helps almost everyone, to exact shader comparisons that only help one specific application. Full shader comparisons are morally grungy, but not deeply evil."Nvidia's "optimization" degraded IQ. This has been proven. There is no way around it. That is what even Carmack and Tim Sweeny call a cheat. It's all there in black and white. What ATI did FM considers a cheat, but Tim sweeny and John Carmack in there view is not. IQ was not altered in anyway and the outcome was the same. Beyond 3d has screen shots to prove it. Tech Report has screens to prove it. They just ran another test on their own to prove it.SSCREW, YOU keep saying Nvidia has been short changed by FM. That opinion of yours is not held by the entire hardware and software community now as new facts are coming out everyday. It's this simple. The tests inwhich Nvidia cheated in are the areas that the fx line of cards are weak in. Shader engine performance. This is proven in EVERY SHADER TEST. The shader engine for the R350,R300 of chips runs faster. This has been proven. Hell they just reviewed the NEW 5600 Ultra 2 with the higher clock speed and new core features at Hardocp.com. It still lost to the 9600pro and 9500pro in any game or bench test that used shader ops. and IQ. This is why Nvidia has cried foul. Bottom line. They have made their shader engines slower. 1 less vertex shader. 4x2 pixel pipeline. And the tests show this. It has effected performance in shader tests. Hence, because the shader eng

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

I don't go off calling peope names first. If they start with me i will do the same. Buddy wants to call me a clown? Fine. So be it. Buddy wants to call me a dumbass. Fine. So be it. But when he starts posting harware specs and "facts" about consoles and PC's that is entirely incorrect and ficticious AND THEN HAS THE BALLS TO CALL ME A CLOWN WHILE DOING IT, damn straight i am going to call him a moron who knows sqaut and should stick to casual console gaming. Learn some hardware facts before you post.As for consoles. They have plenty of awesome games. That's not the issue here. He claims that there are not 10 PC titles of recent that are better then console games. For 2002-2003 that was a year for excellent PC gaming. It was a slow year for triple a titles for the console. Look at the games that were released for consoles during that period and see. With the Game-Cube having the most Triple A ones. Halo is the only one for XBOX right now. And GTA3 for the PS2. The vast majority of games for the console that came out and hit the charts during that time poeriod were GTA3 rip-off games. The PC just has more variety of games right now. They have not jumped on the GTA3 bandwagon.All the games he mentioned that sucked just proves he's a casual gamer. Ask anyone on their opinion on that list and then see.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

...the shader engine is slower then the 9700pro, 9800pro. It's all in black and white. And why does not anyone in this forum bring up the issue that Nvidia purposely ran those shader tests in FP12, FP16 to gain higher speeds in those tests! You can't do that and consider that a optimization! The minimum requirement to run dx9 applications has to be run in FP24. NO EXCEPTIONS. This is the standard inwhich Microsoft dictates that software and your hardware must render in to consider it dx9 compliant. Defaulting it lower is CHEATING when you test a cards capability in DX9 TESTS! And that is exactly what those tests are that these cards are running! John Carmack stayed away from that issue big time because if he mentioned it, he would be saying Nvidia did cheat by not coming out and saying it. He knows they did. ATI cards ALWAYS run in FP24. And when they altered the camera paths, ATI cards retained the SAME IQ THROUGHOUT THE TEST. No IQ was lost. The outcome was the same. SSCREW, read the article from Tim Sweeny and John Carmack and at TechReport.com This whole issue is simple. They got caught. They cheated. The so-called optimizations Nvidia used altered performance. This has been shown AND proven not just by ExtremeTech. But by Hardopc.com TechReport.com And you need to read a little about this at TheInquirer.com They tell the whole truth about this. Nvidia cheated.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Hey lil monkey dude:There isn't one XBox game with better graphics than a comparable PC game. Sure some PC games don't look as good as some XBox games, but they're either old games or cheap games. The majority of XBox games don't look as good as PC games. Try playing Unreal Championship on XBox and then play Unreal Tournament 2003 on the PC. (same game) The PC looks way better. :)The great thing about the PC is that you can play almost any arcade game exactly the way it is in the arcade with real arcade joysticks hooked up through your keyboard port. And if you're skilled or have the funds you can build the exact controls that are in the arcade too. The PC just has better graphics abilities too.Having said that, I'm enjoying playing MAME (arcade) games on my XBox. It is pretty much the future of consoles. Since it is a PC console hybrid it has the best of both worlds. Sure, you sacrifice a bit of graphics power, and you lose the keyboard/ mouse setup for FPS, but it has it's uses. I like the fact that I can play AVI and DivX and XVid and MP3s straight from the box. Of course MS didn't enable any of that, but maybe they should've.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"Pixel Shader 2.0 performance, a very important measure if you plan to purchase video cards of this level and wish to know how powerful they will be in future DX9 games and we are promised that we will be seeing some DX9 titles released this year.It is clear from this performance chart that the 9500 Pro gives us the highest Pixel Shader 2.0 results, even when compared to the overclocked GFFX 5600 Pro. The 9600 Pro follows the 9500 Pro in performance. The GFFX 5600 Pro comes in last place in shader speed. Fixed Function speed is another story though, the GFFX 5600 Ultra is slightly faster with DX7 level fixed function pipeline. But when it comes to pure shader speed, the 9600 Pro and especially 9500 Pro are better suited for this."This is an example of why the shader engine in ATI chips are faster. This is the New 5600 Ultra with faster clcok speed then the old one and it still loses in tests and games that run shader ops. vs. the 9600pro and the 9500pro. And this applies also to the 5900vs.9800pro. It just has a slower shader operation.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

And for the record, in my opinion Battlefield 1942 is an awesome PC game. It's the most fun multiplayer game to come around since Unreal Tournament 2003. The gameplay is great. You have to use teamwork and strategy, and the graphics are great as a bonus.Almost anyone who doesn't like BF1942 either didn't give it a chance or hasn't played it online. The difference between playing it multi player and single player is like the difference between going to a rock concert and watching one on TV.The mods are ok, especially Desert Combat, but the original is still my favorite. It's an incredibly fun game.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

This just goes to show that it is up to the software developers and video card manufacturers to communicate specs and tricks to make games run better on their hardware. It is clear by reading both Ati and Nvidia's statement that communication about how things are done will result in better performace; mainly caused by programming that is directed to said hardware functions.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Future games will use large amounts of pixel and vertex shaders. It's interesting that Nvidia has stated that their cards are more future proof then ATI cards in their marketing push of the FX CHIPS. I don't know about that. Pixel and vertex shader games are the future. Nvidia based cards run them slower then ATI's. So how can their cards be more future proof? And you definately cannot say Cinefx or Cg graphics makes it so as the rendering of the Dawn demo on all directx9 ATI cards crushes that theory. That was to showcase Cg graphics and Cinefx at it's best. Something Nvidia said ATI could never do. Boy do they look like assholes now.

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