GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"We have now established that nVidia's Detonator FX drivers contain certain detection mechanisms that cause an artificially high score when using 3DMark03. We have just published a patch 330 for 3DMark03 that defeats the detection mechanisms in the drivers and provides correct results." this is how Futuremark introduce their latest patch for their popular 3DMark03 software.

Saratoga, Calif.-based Futuremark issued a statement claiming that nVidia tweaked software needed to run its new GeForce FX 5900 chip, in order to distort performance in Futuremark's 3DMark 03 testing application. Futuremark is one of the leaders in software and services for performing PC benchmark tests.

According to Futuremark when the patch was applied a drop of as much as 24.1 per cent was observed in certain nVidia products, while competition products performance-drop stayed within the margin of error of 3 per cent.

An nVidia spokesperson said Since nVidia is not part of the Futuremark beta program (a program which costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars to participate in), we do not get a chance to work with Futuremark on writing the shaders like we would with a real applications developer. We don't know what they did, but it looks like they have intentionally tried to create a scenario that makes our products look bad.

ATI meanwhile are not too keen to capitalize on another, possible, embarassment for their rivals. ATI's Dave Baumann, partly in response to nVidia's statement said:
Despite still being a full Futuremark Beta member, ATI did not make it out of the report entirely unscathed either. There is a performance difference of about 8 per cent in Game Test 4, that accounts for about a 2 per cent difference in the final 3DMark03 score, between the new and old versions, indicating that although not visually different something was occurring on this particular test.

In order to add further validity to the importance of benchmarking tests ATI's Christ Evenden stated:
The 1.9 per cent performance gain comes from optimization of the two DX9 shaders (water and sky) in Game Test 4 . We render the scene exactly as intended by Futuremark, in full-precision floating point. Our shaders are mathematically and functionally identical to Futuremark's and there are no visual artifacts; we simply shuffle instructions to take advantage of our architecture. These are exactly the sort of optimizations that work in games to improve frame rates without reducing image quality and as such, are a realistic approach to a benchmark intended to measure in-game performance. However, we recognize that these can be used by some people to call into question the legitimacy of benchmark results, and so we are removing them from our driver as soon as is physically possible. We expect them to be gone by the next release of CATALYST.

What does all this mean however? Most knowledgeable gamers do not buy a card based, solely, on the score achieved in a benchmarking test. It is reliability, performance and value for money which usually determine which card is bought. Benchmark tests are mainly utilized in order to claim the performance crown, giving the bearer increased prestige and an advantage created by the publicity. All that cheating on tests will achieve is to render such tests useless and to create consumers who do not trust the manufacturers. Unfortunately, this time, the reputation of the biggest graphics chip manufacturers has been questioned and there is little chance that they will make it out of it without some doubt remaining in the publics mind. Doubt which can only be cleared by the release of solid, reliable and high quality products.

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GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

i am still waiting for 1 person to provide a realistic reason why extremetech had the developers version of 2003 anyway. come on guys you want to say there is nothing suspicious yet avoid this like black death. funny that.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

oh or how about how futuremark put in nice big letters "nvidia caught cheating" yet hid the ati caught aswell in a bloody pdf file that 99% of people would not download or maybe fully read ?oh of course they are non-biased, my rear end.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

I being a son of electrical Technician. I get really top-notch comp parts. HE HE EH!!!. Well, back to the topic. AHem....ATI is very much a dung bag card. Well it all starts when my little bro is getting his comp upgraded and my dad gets him an ATI card. We put it in and we try out some games. PROBlems like mad over...over and over agian. Were talkin invisible textures, in game slow downs, and most of all, some games not able to run. Within the second day my dad gets A G-FORCE card. to simply be said Problem solved. None of what happened happened again and the games had never run so smoothly before.Oh if you think I’m bias. Well take your fingers and ram it up your assBecause I had ATI couple years back in 1996. When 8 Megs of ram on a video card was god like. I admit at that time Ati was OK. Until I got a nice voodoo card in 1998 which rocked all the way to when I got a beta of unreal 2003 then I got my present card which is now G-force Ti 4 4200. Awesome card plays the games great.G-force Flippin got my respect always to foreverDefinition of chinkUsually a loud mouth asshole who is Asian. That usually uses the term known as f**kin Fan boy and other lame ass shit. Chink only applies to those who fit the description.Im not racist, I just go to a school infested with asians and most of them are pretty much assholesATI is the crap chinks say is the best and being the chinks they are don't even have an ATI card to boast about.yet they still do

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

For the d**k head that is living in the past. Try running the R300 ATI cards you d**k head. 3-7 years ago does not count. What a d**k head. 1996...lol. The 9700pro destroys in all tests at all resolutions, stability and speed the whole gforce4 line. It totally destroys the 4200ti. And f**k head. You are a racist. Just some cracker ass munjy cake with no d**k who knows shit about video cards. Just about tractor pulls and pick-up trucks and f**king your own sister and dog. You hick. Stay in that trailer park. And if ATI cards are "dung cards" What would that make Nvidia's cards? Total shit dung? They have to cheat to increase bench marks. f**king hick d**k head.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

John, f**k off and leace this forum you moron. If you don't like this forum. LEAVE. GET A LIFE. Do the same. Go pick up women as you KEEP bragging that you get them. lol. P.S. You mother does not count.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

nvidia accuses of cheating in a test they say is rubbish and should not be used. they then dare to say no its the test that is faulty and they have recomended not using it for some time.the facts some people like to forget obviously. people want to believe futuremark instead. losers.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

I can believe that nvidia was cheating to get more publicity and sales. Especially since they are loosing face in the market to Ati. Business is business and any company in nvidia's shoes would have done the same thing to try to save thier reputation and gain more capital.As for the last paragraph in this article. Its is true the benchmarks are not the best way to test a hardware product because they can be bias but they are highly used to make decision on which card to buy. Don't say the test are faulty. Just come out and say it nvidia cheated and who knows for how long they have been doing it. I mean a 24% perfomance drop is very significant compared to Ati's 3%.Just goes to show what a company with so much hype lately would do to try to stay on top and make a buck.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

hey you who calls himslef GET A LIFE i have few questions for you.1. Why can't you speak proper english? I would say "go BACK to school" but the more appropriate comment would be "go TO school"2. I am unfit yet i play field hockey for my province (state)3. Why do you accuse others of having low self esteem? If you areso sure of yourself then why do you have to come in here and swear at us. You know none of us will change (not that there is anything wrong with us)4. Is it right to have sex at 15?

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

You know what GET A LIFE? i am not even going to waste my time on you. I know this sounds cliched but i refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. *GET A LIFE gets out a dictionary and looks up those words*

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

GET A LIFE, is always saying."Go out and get laid""Go out and get a girl""You are losers and post here all the time"Interesting not counting your sad handling of the english language. You are posting just as much as everyone else on this forum. And then have the balls to slag everyone here that we need to get a life and get laid? Wow. You are a loser of no class. And morons that always talk about getting laid, and brag about it more or less only toss off to nudie mags. Sounds familar GET A LIFE? Are you 12 years old? Do you have ANYTHING to say that even relates to the topics in this forum? Or are you obsessed with getting your first piece of ass INSTEAD? Male or animal ass for you I assume.mosesonwheels has it right in regards to low self esteem. That's GET A LIFE'S major issue. You insult everyone and come to the conclusion that your the "man" When in fact, it proves you're a child who dreams of pussy. You talk too much about getting laid "boy stupid the brainless wonder" This is a dead give away that the only pussy you get or have seen is watching the naked chef on the tele. Do us all and yourself a favour, go out and get laid! That way you will shut the hell up and stop wishing about it.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

GET A LIFE and all the other anonymous and bullshit id's you use. Get the f**k off this forum. You are contributing absolutely f**k all to it. You brag about how your life is sooooo great. That you get f**ked all the time. By dogs and cats like dr death said. lmao. The few people on these sites that post things that are relevent is a f**king good thing. You might not agree with them, but they are doing something that your faggot ass cannot do GET A LIFE. Post something related to the issues. You talk too f**king much about getting women and getting laid. Let us all let your sorry f**king ass in on a little secret that has been mentioned here before by a few people...Assholes that brag about things like you GET A LIFE, never have it and wish they did. You don't hear Bill Gates bragging about all his money? You don't hear Brad Pitt or other movie stars brag about how many women they f**ked? You don't hear Jay Leno bragging about all the exotic cars he owns? You don't hear hot looking women brag about how hot and sexxy they are? Why? Because they don't have too. People with riches and money don't need to. They know they have it. Why brag? People with good looks don't need to brag. They know it. It's only f**king assholes like you GET A LIFE that needs to brag and TRY to put other people down. (you f**king fail miserably trying to do it too because we all know you're a f**king wishing wanna-be ugly f**king loser with no d**k.)And lose the f**king cap locks you illiterate bastard. Nobody here wants to hear your f**king rambling about your dreams of getting f**ked. Then again your asshole is so large and round from all that horse c**k you get f**ked with. And YOU post too f**king much here in this forum too you f**king prick sucker! The people that post here all the time at least say something worth while. You just shoot shit from your wide asshole. Using different id's to hide the f**king asshole that you are. You really need to lose your virginity GET A LIFE. Your

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Umm...What the hell, people...You have made these forums a joke...By reading this, people become dumber. Some people like computers and games...and they are interested in this shit...If your not interested and you have such a great life, then why are you posting here...Go away you freaks.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

There's this girl that shall be refered to as 'Lisa'. Now, Lisa likes me, she's a fun gal with GREAT legs and has been a great friend to me. but i dont know if i can be in a 'boyfriend/girlfriend' kind of relationship with her. What would you do??

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Aside from tennis, computers, and a couple girls, i have no life at all. not that 'GET A LIFE' does.GirlAdvice: I don't know what to tell ya, if you cant do it; dont. but she sounds like a good gal.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

try to stay on topic people. try answering some of the questions asked, or is that to hard ?rid**k - dont say the test is faulty???? why not if it is ? thats saying that gfx card makers should make their cards to run how futuremark want them to. thats the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. the fact is that 3dmark is rubbish and does not reflect how real games work. compare how real games done in the reviews score with both ati and nvidia and then look at 3dmark. i would not trust a 3dmark score if i could spit on it.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

You guys who swear are a bunch of tossers. Can't get kicks out of anything else. Poor deprived Spanners. Who is stupid enough to buy a card over $200-£150 when you can safely over-clock.Its those idiots who say, i can see the difference in that card... Sure but is it worth it. 9 months later, I buy the same card for 1/3 price.Losers fall for the Crap Trap of industrial advertising on levels like this, and its spanners who buy them that cause the prices to go down. Thank you spanners.Any one that replies to this message needs a life.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

GET A LIFE? So you think i don't have friends? LOL i have 1 beautiful friend that is probably better than yours. So hot wanna know?Its my computer oh god i like stickin my p***s on that Fan hole ahhh feels great here..

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Same moron who thinks he's fooling everyone with multiple id's and copying other peoples id's. Buddy. You're a f**king loser. Wether you copy dr.deaths id. Pramma's id. sscrew's id. Or anyones else's id. It does not matter. We all know its the same f**king loser doing it. (GET A LIFE.)And you are calling other people losers GET A LIFE? You f**king keep posting using other peoples id's saying things those people would never say. Who the f**k do you think you're fooling you dumb-ass. We know it's you GET A LIFE and all the other f**king loser names you use. What a f**king gimp you are. Get the f**k off the forum if you have nothing related to say to the topic you c**k sucker.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Bloody hell. If Nvidia keeps running it's mouth off how 3dmarks2003 is invalid and is not a true gaming test for video cards. Then why the f**king hell did they cheat in it 2 times? This is what makes me believe they are true f**king liars. If they don't care. Why even do it in the first or second place? There full of shit.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Dell Speaks...02-Jun-2003, 16:45.59 Reporter : DaveBaumann...and usually their suppliers listen.It doesn't seem that often that Dell speaks out on such issues, but being one of the largest OEM's its usually in the best interests of their suppliers to listen. Today Futuremark have put up a quote of endorsement from Dell on its much battered 3DMark03 benchmark."Dell uses many tools to evaluate system and graphics subsystem performance. We believe 3DMark03 is a solid synthetic graphics benchmark that covers a wide range of usage models and complements application-specific testing. Synthetic benchmarks like 3DMark03 help to differentiate graphics subsystem performance characteristics of both high end and lower end cards by utilizing sets of tests with varying degrees of graphics complexity. Entry level cards will be able to run at least one simple test to be used in comparisons for those interested in basic 3D functionality. Additionally, those interested in leading edge technology with be able to make graphics hardware comparisons with a range of tests using the new APIs, shaders, rendering techniques, etc. Dell believes 3DMark03 is a versatile tool that allows a fair comparison of today's wide range of 3D graphics solutions."And this is why Nvidia cares about this whole issue and trys to b.s otherwise. OEMS still use this benchmark. And Nvidia knows it, like it or not. And if Dell uses it. You know the others do too. The great fear of Nvidia right now.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

This is how I feel about my virtual girlfriend.It's amazingHow you can speakRight to my heartWithout saying a word,You can light up the darkTry as I mayI could never explainWhat I hear whenYou don't say a thing[CHORUS:]The smile on your faceLets me knowThat you need meThere's a truthIn your eyesSaying you'll never leave meThe touch of your hand saysYou'll catch meWhenever I fallYou say it bestWhen you sayNothing at allAll day longI can hear peopleTalking out loudBut when you hold me nearYou drown out the crowd(The crowd)Try as they mayThey can never defineWhat's been saidBetween yourHeart and mine[Repeat chorus twice](You say it bestWhen you sayNothing at allYou say it bestWhen you sayNothing at all)The smile on your faceThe truth in your eyesThe touch of your handLet's me knowThat you need me[Repeat chorus](You say it bestWhen you sayNothing at allYou say it bestWhen you sayNothing at all)The smile on your faceThe truth in your eyesThe touch of your handLet's me knowThat you need me(You say it bestWhen you sayNothing at allYou say it bestWhen you sayNothing at all)

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

QUOTE:> "the fact is that 3dmark is rubbish and does not reflect how real games work. compare how real games done in the reviews score with both ati and nvidia and then look at 3dmark."3dMark reflects how programs using Direct X 9 technology work. There are no "real games" that use DX9. The reason you see 5900Ultra getting higher scores in "real games" is because they use DX8. 5900Ultra doesn't handle DX9 as efficiently as it does DX8, so that's why there's a difference in DX8 "real game" scores and DX9 3dMark2003 scores.Do a little reading before you spout off next time.3dMark2003 is a reliable test of Direct X 9 performance. Period. Newer games will use this technology and you'll see what we mean when that happens.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

People like GET A LIFE should be banned for quoting Krauss Alison.Does anyone know when to expect the next detonator release? i would say its time for a new one.I agree with DeQuosaek, and the only way to see if 2dmark2k3 is a 'realistic' test of real-game performance is to bench with a dx9 game, which you'll have to wait for. But as far as all testers say so far, 3dmark2k3 is an accurate representative bench of dx9 features.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Hot off the presses..."FutureMark Statement:Futuremark now has a deeper understanding of the situation and NVIDIA's optimization strategy. In the light of this, Futuremark now states that NVIDIA's driver design is an application specific optimization and not a cheat.NVIDIA Statement:NVIDIA works closely with developers to optimize games for GeForceFX. These optimizations (including shader optimizations) are the result of the co-development process. This is the approach NVIDIA would have preferred also for 3DMark03.Joint NVIDIA-Futuremark Statement:Both NVIDIA and Futuremark want to define clear rules with the industry about how benchmarks should be developed and how they should be used. We believe that common rules will prevent these types of unfortunate situations moving forward.Translation VIA HardOCP: FutureMark reneges on previous statements and confirms NVIDIA was not cheating on their benchmark and NVIDIA will not take a legal action against FutureMark that would bankrupt them. All about the $, but that is just our opinion. Still this does not change our thoughts on the FutureMark and their benchmark. Editorial coming..."I have NO respect whatsoever for Nvidia. None. What a bunch of babies. Too bad that the whole hardware and gaming community knows it's cheating. Even Carmack in his definition says so as well as Tim Sweeny. Boy, all this does is make Nvidia look even worse. Bunch of whiners.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

You know what. It really f**king pisses me off when other n****rs and spics use my name. But I feel this way.If I should stayI would only be in your waySo I'll go, but I knowI'll think of youEvery step of the wayI will always love youI will always love youBitter sweet memoriesThat is all I'm taking with meSo good-bye, please don't cryWe both know I'm notWhat you you needI hope you have all you dreamed ofI wish to you joy and happinessBut above all this I wish you loveI will always love youYou darlingI'll alwaysI'll always love you

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Typical illiterate racist moron. Do you live in a trailer park? Sleep with your sister? Drive a pick-up truck? Only finished grade 1? A regular on the Jerry Springer show? Trying to still use my name. What a moron. You're buck tooth sister and mother is waiting for you in the hay loft....

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Sounds like it in a big way. Lot's of 'strong arm tactics' being used THERE. And you should read the article at Hardocp. They are trying to spew the same PR b.s. that Nvidia has been trying to do. Get a load of this statement by them..."I humbly ask that anyone evaluating computer hardware to stop publishing the game demo scores taken from 3DMark03."And if you read their articles and reviews of late, you will also know that they receive Nvidia gpu's alot earlier for review then other sites. Hmmmmmmmmm.And then you have to wonder also, does this have anything to do with the earlier statement by Dell Computers supporting 3dmarks? ;)Gentleman, this is all about the $$$$$ FutureMarks is a small 21 person company that cannot bump heads with a multi-million dollar blood sucking company and expect to survive. What a load of rubbish. Bullocks. And with this B.S statement from both parties, no mention of 'clipping planes' or absence of buffers and decreased precision is even mentioned...Sooooo let me get this straight. ATI takes out their optimizations that do not effect output, while nVidia stomps their feet and cries like a baby and leaves in their "optimizations" that DO EFFECT OUTPUT QUALITY. Yeah that makes sense.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

From what I read, I thought both sides were doing the same thing or similar which wouldn't affect benchmarking if you were comparing the video cards side by side. It seems that both companies were doing this in order to give the end user better graphics, removing these software settings may possibly make some cards run slower than before the removal of the optimizations. Is that what you people want? slower video cards? If these software optimizations were placed specifically for the benchmarking software and for no other applications then I'd agree with everyone else and say remove them but this article was pretty vague after all.oh yeah btw, shit talking should be done face to face or not at all, looks pretty sad when u cant get a grip when someone takes your name. Cry like a baby and flame them all you like, they will read and they will laugh because they feel they have annoyed someone successfully again. Come on, if your so mature, why don't you act like it?

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

Let's make this clear to some......Application specific optimizations don't lower image quality. Application specific optimizations don't break when the camera leaves a set track. The are cheats. End of discussion.Unless NVIDIA really feels that lowering image quality is a valid optimization. Makes you wonder why they bother making "high-end" cards at all. If image quality doesn't matter, NVIDIA can join the ranks of SIS and Trident and be in good company.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

----From what I read, I thought both sides were doing the same thing or similar which wouldn't affect benchmarking if you were comparing the video cards side by side. It seems that both companies were doing this in order to give the end user better graphics,----In Nvidia's case, the end result and graphics were not the same. Quality was lowered. And all the talk of clipping planes and images no rendered. Loss of buffers and other things. That's cheating. And it's still cheating even if you did it in real game tests. Especially clipping planes.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

drdeath, god you talk sh*t. how much are ati paying you to babble on ? try ready the article about not using 3dmark again moron[url removed] you will see that dell are basing their decisions on this 1 unreliable test. ye thats real smart.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

DeQuosaek, try using that single brain cell before YOU start spouting off. yes there isnt any directx9 games yet and there wont be for a while. but if you bother to read futuremarks statement they say they use unoptimized routines for gfx while they use different for athlon and P4 cpu's. hmm considiering that both ati and nvidia usually work with game developers to get the most out of their cards then that shows that 3dmark is in no way representative of real games development.anyone who bases their decisions based on 3dmark just does not have a clue.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

oh and drdeath i would not bitch too much about nvidia lowering image quality too much since ati have been caught doing just that plenty of times for games.nvidia's problems with 3dmark 2003 only showed up in the developers version not normally.you are right though, end of discussion, go back to playing with your joystick.

GFX 5900 Caught Cheating

"anyone who bases their decisions based on 3dmark just does not have a clue."Then you must be summing up Nvidia then also. As they were MAJOR supporters of 3dmarks when they were at the top of the food chain. ALL of a sudden they they no longer support it because they are not there now. And "who' is calling the test, "unreliable?" Seems the players involved that have the most to lose are. Hardocp and a few other sites have "backed" Nvidia on this issue only AFTER they raised hell and started a major PR campaign about it. Got to love strong arm tactics. Notice how Hardocp has been getting 'free' samples of the latest fx chipsets to review before most sites? Yup. True unbiased source at times...With all other shader tests in the past Nvidia had no problem with 3dmarks. Of course because they were ahead in most if not all of them. The ironic thing about this test in question, which is the Nature test or test#4 if i am not mistaken, shows results that confirm the REAL game tests that use lots of pixel and vertex shaders. Such as Splinter Cell. Commanche4. Unreal2003 in levels that use lots of shaders. That the 59800, 5800 has a slower shader engine then ATI's GPU's. Numbers don't lie.And please tell me about ATI reducing visual quality in a game? Quake3 was a long time ago. Come up with something new. Something current. And then you can go back and play with your friends joystick.....

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